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TML biweekly    Wed May 11 21:00:02 EDT 1994    Volume 44 : Issue 9

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 599  7504 09-May-1994 David Johnson    Shall Not Perish 11 - Sword Worlds << G
 599  7505 09-May-1994 Muir Macpherson  ammo capacity << Has anyone, perhaps on
 599  7506 09-May-1994 David Johnson    Earth Colonies NPC - Scheherazade << Ge
 599  7507 09-May-1994 David Johnson    Earth Colonies - Earth << Gentlesophont
 599  7509 10-May-1994 Kerry Harrison   Sigma Zephyrus  << Details on just wher
 599  7510 10-May-1994 gerald.s.willia  Re: Thoughts about Colonies, etc. << Te
 599  7511 10-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Stations/Depot/Xboat Politics << On Dee
 599  7512 10-May-1994 David Johnson    Earth Colonies World Gen - Govt << Gent
 599  7513 10-May-1994 "Susan M. Shock  CT/MT/TNE: It's still TRAVELLER! <<   I
 599  7514 10-May-1994 "Susan M. Shock  Charted Space map for sale/trade. << I 
 599  7508 10-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Sword World technology << David Johnson

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7504
Date: Mon, 9 May 94 19:21:53 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Shall Not Perish 11 - Sword Worlds

Gentlesophonts:

Well, I seem to have developed some sort of mail reception problem and am
only getting my TML fix through ftp now so I apologize for the delay in my
repsonse time.

Alistair Langsford <langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au> writes:

> While they seem to have been stagnant in the past, the challenges of 
> surviving through to the New Era might wake them up. This seems to be 
> suggested by David Johnsons write up (which I liked, BTW). I don't see why 
> you can't be optimistic and use the higher of the suggested tech level 
> increases, and have SACNOTH go up to TL 13.

This is a good point.  I'm something of a Sword Worlder though (I was in
the *JTAS* `draft' a long time ago and served in the Confederation Second
Grav Tank Corps during the 5FW) and decided to `be conservative' and choose
the lower TL choice in my modifications for TNE to avoid any suggestion
of partisanship.  I'm curious what others think of this issue.
 

Steve Bonneville <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu> writes:

> Subject: Why no GDW Regency Yet.
> Patience, folks.  For now, you can make it up as you go!

I *thought* that's what we were doing!  ;-)


Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> Bruce Pihlamae writes:
> >    On the subject of tech level advances:
> >     
> >    A tech level advance is usually a fundamental breakthrough or addition 
> >    of knowledge to the society.  Other advances are simply refinements or 
> >    incremental improvements on existing technology.
> 
> This is true only on the cutting edge of technology, which for most worlds
> in the former Imperium (and all worlds in the Regency) is 16. Even if you
> assume that the newest discoveries are kept secret that still means that
> anything up to TL 15 is a question of economics: Can you afford to build
> and maintain the industry for a given TL.

I agree with Hans's point but I think this has major ramifications for the
Regency and other Spinward States in TNE.  As Alistair suggests above one
would expect the Viral threat to serve as an important motivator for all
interstellar states to seek to overcome the economic and social obstacles
to the spread of their highest technological capabilites.

Just as the Regency is most likely sending scientists and engineers from
its TL 15 worlds to study on Vincennes, I would think the Sword Worlds 
would be doing the same.  They might even put aside their distaste for
Imperials and Zhodani in order to participate in technological exchange
programs with them.

It was in the interests of the Imperium to maintain the technological
diversity of its worlds - it made the lower-tech worlds easier to control
through advanced technology and the higher-tech worlds easier to control
through control of the means of transportation and communication between
them.

Such motivations become suspect in the face of Virus.


Finally, Bill White <whitew@eden.rutgers.edu> writes a whole bunch
of good stuff on:

>               The Political Economy of the Imperium

Ending with:

> The assumptions I am making here are different from but no less
> valid than those made by advocates of changing UWP generation. 
> In a sense I am making the case for an "active Imperium" that
> acts on the worlds within its domain, indirectly, by governing
> the relationships between them.
> 
> Comments?  I'm all ears.

I agree with much of what Bill writes - his argument is well thought out.
I, too, prefer to `rationalize' the `inconsistencies' that appear due
to `glitches' in the rules.  With Traveller world generation though these
`inconsistencies' are, IMHO, just too rampant.  Yes, there may be policy
reasons for the Imperium to subsidize `un-needed' starports and
to promote settlement of `Nifflheims' when several `Edens' are just
a week away, but I find it impossible to explain these sorts of decisions
when such explanations often become necessary for multiple occurrences in
a single subsector.

I don't like rules, but world generation is one of those places where
a lot of useful information is generated very quickly - a good measure
of the usefulness of a rule - and in this instance we're still plagued
with relics that were developed a long time ago when sci-fi role-
playing was still relatively new.  It was fine - even fun and interesting -
to have such `awkward' worlds when we were just adventuring in Regina
subsector but now that the entire galaxy is at our disposal I think it's
time for a little tinkering with the mechanics.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7505
Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 18:08:17 -0700
From: Muir Macpherson <muirmac@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: ammo capacity

Has anyone, perhaps on the beta list, examined how to come up with reasonable
clip capacities for slug throwers?

I mean, how far can you extend a bannana clip until it gets in the way?
What about ammo drums, like a Thompson, or top-mounted clips, like the
T:2000 weapon that appears in Challenge 72?

------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7506
Date: Mon, 9 May 94 21:46:57 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Earth Colonies NPC - Scheherazade

Gentlesophonts:

Scheherazade Wavecatcher appeared in *Melbourne Times* #1.  She ought to
be easily adaptable to just about any Traveller campaign - even the dreaded
New Era.  :-)

Scheherazade Wavecatcher

Scheherazade is an attractive, middle-aged Dolphin female.  She is somewhat
small for a female Dolphin and her soft build reveals her non-athletic nature.
In atmosphere, Scheherazade is always dressed in a stylish e-suit with integral
waldos, voder and contragravity.  In hydrosphere, she is typically unclothed. 
Scheherazade usually scorns the use of translation devices, relying instead
upon here own linguistics skills.  Just in case though, her voder is equipped
with a full translator for use in emergencies.  She often carries a
computer-recorder and comm-link.

Scheherazade speaks native Delphinese and understands most major Human
languages as well as Meren and several Aeroi dialects.  She can speak all these
languages with the use of her voder.  Her words tend to come quickly when she
is excited or angry, but she has learned to control this in professional
situations.  A natural diplomat, Scheherazade is gregarious and a facilitator
of conversations.

Scheherazade has mastered the social skills required of a diplomat, but several
of her assignments in less sophisticated areas of society have led to her
comfort among them as well.  She is also quite able to persuade others of her
point of view.  She is an innovator and highly adept at adjusting to new
situations.  She is often looked to as a leader.  Her own respect for authority
is generally tolerant.
  
Scheherazade has few interests outside her work.  Fortunately, the work of a
freelance diplomat requires a broad range of interests.  Scheherazade has
extensive contact throughout the diplomatic community, especially in economic
and criminal law fields.

Scheherazade has two co-mothers to whom she is very close.  She is similarly
close to her sole brother.  She has a single birth-daughter who has not spoken
to her in years.  She is closer to her two care-sons.  Recently, she has become
involved romantically with Ulfilas Yellowknell, a writer of some renown.
She has made professional enemies of Pelham O'Boyle, a Commonwealth army
officer who was court-martialed as a result of her investigations early in her
career, and of Akbar Aubademaker, an instructor at the Universidad de Lima who
attempted unsuccessfully to take credit for her research.  She counts
Jacqueline deVlaminck, a pirate encountered while negotiating the Nyanza
Anti-piracy Protocol, and Dean Quadros, a belter she met during her work on the
VanMaanen Mining Accords, among her professional friends.

Somewhat typically of Dolphins, Scheherazade is an idealist.  She has gone
freelance to pursue her belief in greater harmony among all peoples, a position
that was not always fostered in the Commonwealth diplomatic corps.  Her
continued association with Hsun Li, her former superior in the Corps, has lead
to several challenging assignments for a wide variety of clients.  Most
recently she has served as a trade negotiator for Aeroi interests in Ourora
subsector in the aftermath of the Markets War.

*****

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA
Houston: The first word spoken from the surface of the Moon.


------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7507
Date: Mon, 9 May 94 21:56:18 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Earth Colonies - Earth

Gentlesophonts:

The following *WBH* information on Earth at the dawn of the 31st Century
appears as an Earth Colonies Developing League Working Paper.

Worldview: Earth/Sirius 1720.19

Earth A867988-D DWX     Hi Cp Ho                814 Co G2V
Starport: excellent (class A)
Size: large (12,742 km, 1.00 g)
 Primary-Sol (G2V), orbit-3, period-356.25d, rotation-23h56m4s.
Atmosphere: standard (1.00 atm)
 Standard oxygen nitrogen mix, base temp 15 #251#C (+21 equator/-49 pole, +6
 day/-12 night, +14 summer/-23 winter), native life
Hydrosphere: wet (74%)
 Liquid water, 3 major continents, 3 minor continents, 12 major islands, 14
 archipelagos, 6 major volcanoes, weather control
 Resources-agriculture, ores, compounds, agriproducts, non-metals, parts,
 durables, consumables, recordings, software, documents
Population: high (8.3 billion)
 Primary cities (starport)- New York 98 million (class A), Jakarta 97 million
 (class A), Seoul 96 million (class B), Mexico 92 million (class A), Los Angeles
 89 million (class A), Tokyo 89 million (class A), Bombay 88 million (class A),
 Sao Paolo 84 million (class A), Calcutta 84 million (class B), Buenos Aires 83
 million (class B), Cairo 83 million (class A), Lagos 81 million (class B), Rio
 de Janeiro 80 million (class A), Manilla 80 million (class B), Teheran 80
 million (class A); 85 secondary cities of tens of millions, including nine
 orbital (class F spaceports); 495 tertiary cities of millions (class H
 spaceports)
 Social outlook-progressiveness (progressive/advancing), aggressiveness
 (unaggressive/neutral), extensiveness (harmonious/friendly).
Government: democratic oligarchy
 Representative authority: several executive/judicial councils
 Other authority: elite legislative council
Law level: high (8-C4998)
 Law uniformity-territorial, weapons law-extreme, trade law-moderate, criminal
 law-high, civil law-high, personal freedom law-high
Tech level: avg stellar (DC-DCCCD-DDDD-DD-D)
 High /low common tech-avg stellar, energy-avg stellar, computers/robotics-avg
 stellar, communications-avg stellar, medical-avg stellar, environment-avg
 stellar, land/water/air/space transport-avg stellar, personal/heavy
 military-avg stellar, novelty-avg stellar.
Installations: class A starport, naval depot, scout way station, x-boat station
Trade classification: high population
Remarks: regional capital, homeworld (Dolphins, Humans)
Allegiance: Commonwealth of Earth
System features: planetoid belt, four gas giants, yellow main-sequence star

Inner System Profile:
orbit   name            UPP             remarks         jump points
- -     Sol             G2 V            primary                 J-1
0       empty orbit                                             -
1       Mercury         F300465-6       Ni Va Re M              -
2       Venus           F8B0469-5       Ni Re M                 -
3       Earth           A867988-D       Hi Cp Ho                J-4
  60    Luna            F200679-A       Ni Na Va Re MNS         -
4       Mars            F43057A-A       De Ni Po Re M           -
5       belt            F000644-9       As Na Ni Va MN          -

Outer System Profile:
orbit   name            UPP             remarks         jump points
6       Jupiter         large GG        size 89                 J-2
  6     Io              F210535-9       Ni Re                   -
  9     Europa          G200357-6       Lo Ni Va                -
  15    Ganymede        G300448-6       Ni Va                   -
  25    Callisto        F30066A-A       Ni Na Va MNS            -
7       Saturn          large GG        size 75                 J-3
  20    Titan           F3A0679-B       De Ni Re MN             -
8       Uranus          small GG        size 32                 J-4
8.5     Neptune         small GG        size 30                 J-4
  15    Triton          F2106BF-A       Ni Re N                 -
9       Pluto           H200000-0       Ba Va                   -
10      Persephone      GA0036C-1       Lo Ni Va Re             J-4

Earth/Sirius Jump Destinations Table
Destination     World Name (Allegiance)         Distance (pc)
1620.20         Issyk Kul/Procyon (Co)          1
1722.19         Oirot/Fomalhaut (Co)            2
1519.19         Jabir/Procyon (Co)              2
1519.18         K'ang-hsi/Pollux (Co)           3
1718.20         Sirius Belt/Sirius (Na)         3
1919.20         Ensanche/Sirius (Co)            3
1823.20         Ezana/Fomalhaut (Co)            3
2021.20         Phumiphon/Fomalhaut (Co)        3
1917.20         Lalibela/Sirius (Co)            3
1420.19         Iyeyasu/Procyon (Co)            3
1922.17         Iberville/Vega (Co)             3
1921.22         Okhotsk/Fomalhaut (Na)          3
1920.17         Ferishtah/Gaea (Co)             3
1617.19         Aoki/Procyon (Co)               3
2021.21         Dharan/Fomalhaut (Co)           4
1722.16         Nejd/Vega (Co)                  4
2019.20         al-Ghazali/Sirius (Co)          4
1817.22         Ghee/Sirius (Co)                4
1921.16         Niyikang/Vega (Co)              4
1716.19         Dairen/Sirius (Na)              4
1524.20         Vindhya/Siddhartha (Co)         4
2119.19         VanMaanen's Belt/Sirius (Na)    4
1321.18         Jahangir/Jagannath (Na)         4
2020.22         Saavedra/Sirius (Co)            4
1419.16         Anokye/Pollux (Co)              4

Earth is the homeworld of both Dolphins and Humans and the birthplace of Terran
civilization.  All Terran states in the Earth Colonies Sphere were originally
colonized by settlers from Earth, or their descendants.

Earth is the capital and most important world of the Commonwealth of Earth. 
The world suffered extensive ecological damage during the 21st through 24th
Centuries and only recently has most of the damage been erased.  Earth of the
31st Century is closer to the 'garden planet' of yore than it has been since
the rise of industrial civilization.  Scattered among its vast oceans and
forests are gleaming megalopolises.  Exploitation of natural resources has been
abandoned in favor of a balanced stewardship.

*****

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7509
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 00:13:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@illuminati.io.com>
Subject: Sigma Zephyrus 


Details on just where Sigma Zephyrus sector is.

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 03:48:00 UTC
From:m.mikesh@genie.geis.com
To: kerry@illuminati.io.com
Subject: Sigma Zephyrus

> One sector, "Sigma Zephyrus", has no known location, but is probably
> eight or more sectors spinward of Core near Theta Borealis.  Its only
> mention is from a sidebar in DGP's TD #19, p. 25:
>   "Years ago, Deneb was the original headquarters of the Scout Service's
>    Group Program, which established exploration outposts at Geokha
>    (Sigma Zephyrus 3210) and Pautho (Theta Borealis 1506), far beyond
>    Imperial borders."
 
Kerry -
     I wrote the articles in collaboration with James Holden.  That
segment is actually a condensation of something in the Grand
Explorations manuscript which Geo Gelinas and I wrote.  (Although the
book was ultimately cancelled, the material might begin to see print
soon in the form of magazine articles.)
     The similarities to Theta Borealis sector, published by Group One,
were deliberate so as to lend validity to that product.
     You're welcome to forward this information back to whoever
posted the above.  Thanks.                                        MIKE
 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The Group Program
     In 359, the Scouts began a massive deep space exploration effort,
named the Group Program after Dr Sylvester Group, the prominent
scientist that lead the campaigned for it.  The primary objective was
to send ships with astronomical sensors well outside the Imperium.  At
the same time, the ships would carry exploration teams to study the
systems along the way.  With the support of other scientists from a
wide range of fields, he won the endorsement of several dukes and
ultimately that of the Emperor Anguistus.
     The project set up headquarters at Deneb and prepared two series
of missions focused on two different directions roughly ninety degree
apart from one another.  The series called Group One focused on areas
to spinward, while Group Two went to coreward.  Each set up a
permanent colony on a remote hospitable world to support these remote
scientific endeavors.
     Group One established itself at Pautho (Theta Borealis 1506
A567456-E V), a very hospitable world, but barren at the time.
Imperium-wide attention given the projects attracted numerous
engineers and technicians to settle the colony.  They rapidly set up a
class A starport, city, and hinterland with the lavish support of the
Scout supply line.  The colony tech level started out fully at the
Imperial maximum (TL13).
     Advanced scouts particularly selected Theta Borealis for its many
budding minor races.  The colonists recruited a few thousand to help
build the colony.  In return, Pautho gave the aliens technological
assistance which allowed a few to start their own interstellar
communities after a couple of centuries.  Humans from Pautho often
settled on these alien worlds to form commercial companies.
     Meanwhile, Group Two settled Geokha (Sigma Zephyrus 3210
A689559-E V) in the same fashion.  This sector, called Zhiaqrqiats in
the Zhodani language, was rich in Ancient sites.  Geokha itself had an
enormous intact Ancient city completely untouched by the Final War.
However, the Ancient withdrawal was evidently quite orderly, leaving
little to physically ship back to the Imperium for study.  The
searchings by scientists and the occasional artifact hunters
periodically encounter rich finds, though.


------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7510
From: gsw@aloft.att.com (gerald.s.williams)
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 08:24:17 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts about Colonies, etc.

Ted7@world.std.com writes:

> There is nothing in GDW's current (or past) Traveller series technology that 
> requires a celestial body for jump.

Except the background, that is.  Many of the supposed barriers
to travel would not exist without this as at least a practical
requirement (for example, you can do it, but you waste fuel and
it adds an element of danger).

An example from Classic Traveller is the Great Rift, and the
corresponding J-n routes across it which would no longer be needed
(before saying they're for traders, think about the cost savings
of using a smaller Jump drive and the fact that you have more cargo
space by making a series of smaller jumps--besides, they weren't
just for traders).

An example from TNE (which I don't own) is the Regency's defense
against the virus.  I guess TNE claims they are covering every
cubic meter in a shell 6 parsecs thick around the Regency (which
is ludicrous--they would have to be able to INSTANTLY destroy any
ship coming out of jump in that area and NEVER fail).  More likely,
they are covering every planet and gas giant at the border.  Of
course, this doesn't work if it's easy to jump to empty space.
There would be a whole chain of Virus refueling stations extending
throughout the Regency's open space by now (scary, isn't it?).
Make it a little harder to do, and the refueling stations still
appear at the border (slowly), giving the blockade fleets another
horror they have to face before it's too late (not to mention the
occassional deep-space jump patrol popping in on top of literal
fortresses just inside of Regency space).

,-----------------.
|Gerald S Williams|
|gsw@aloft.att.com|
`-----------------'

      _  |     ____/    _  |
     /   /    /        /   /      /                     /
    /   /  ____ |     ____/   _  _/    __ |    __ |    /      ____/
   /   /        /    /          /     /   /   /   /   /    ____
______/  ______/  __/         ___/  _____/  _____/  ___/  ______/


------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7511
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 14:21:53 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Stations/Depot/Xboat Politics

On Deep Space Stations:

It's possible they don't often make much economic sense.  (Maybe I'll do
a quick analysis sometime.)  But they might make very good military
sense, as a refueling depot.  All you need are the hulls for holding
the LHyd fuel, tanker/tugs to haul them around and fill them up, and
a parsec or so to hide them in.  I don't know whether the logistical
assets to support such a venture would be worth tying up or not.


On Depot and its' TL16:

David Johnson <djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov> writes:


>If this infrastructure exists in Deneb - and essentially Vincennes is the
>only source available - then Depot might continue to function.  Clearly
>this would be a priority of the Domain and later the Regency.  On the
>other hand, if Depot was previously supported by Imperial infrastructure
>beyond the Domain then it might be more feasible to move these facilities
>to Vincennes.

Point taken.  However, I think that Depot's tech is supportable on
the Domain's resources.  Deneb has enough TL15 worlds to handle any
materiel Depot got from other worlds at that tech level (maybe with
some retooling) and it would be fairly difficult and time-consuming
to ship anything significant from further away.  The nearest TL16
world outside Deneb was the capital of Corridor, Kaasu (Corr. 1209).
The only other TL16 worlds in that direction are the two in Vland,
Gemid and Lukham.  So Depot had to be fairly self-sufficient in the
way of manufacturing.  And from what we're told, typical Imperial
naval policy dictated this.  Still, I'd expect short-term equipment
problems, especially with experimental ships like the uprated TL17
armed Voroshilev battleships, since those contractors and that project
was not originally in Deneb.  It still will be rough for a couple
of decades, but not I believe, insurmountable.  

Hmm...Depot (Deneb) may have been centered on Imperial prototype
development and testing, as well as high tech production.  Does
anyone else remember any TL16 naval depots?  (It seems to me that
some of the depots were designed with major secondary missions.
Except Depot (Corridor).  Its' secondary mission was its' primary
mission -- to be the biggest naval base in the Imperium!) :)

>My own view is that TL represents the production capability of the world.

Agreed.  I really liked the DGP _World Builder's Handbook_ development
of the tech level concept into types of technology at different levels,
with UWP tech level represented as the height of commonly available
technology on the world.  That didn't rule out weird tech level 
variations in places, or lower tech in undeveloped regions, and so on.
For instance, UWP tech for modern Earth was 8, best representing the
planetary production (i.e. the industrialized, computerized "First
World" countries), but low common was only 6, representing the best
available elsewhere.  The book, if you can still find a copy, presented
a nice flexible system.


On Imperial Politics:

The x-boat system is an interesting case study.  When designed in the
mid-600s, it was state of the art: tech 13, jump four.  (Although
the Imperium was considered tech 14 in 700, so the government probably
had many jump five ships by then).  After four hundred years of service
it was still jump four.  While political reasons for having a slower
information system have been expressed (the government gets news by
jump six first), there are other considerations.  The x-mail system
may have been aging, but it still worked, and it would be terribly
expensive to redesign the entire system for jump six.  What if the
way stations would need to be moved?  Think of the expense of the
new x-boat designs!  [Especially in the old Classic Trav design
system which explains why we have the xboats we do!]

Even so, prior to the Fifth Frontier War, there had been talk of
building a jump six express route from Regina to Capital in order
to keep closer track of the Zhodani situation.  (Which may have been
Imperial sabre-rattling, but is still interesting.)  TNS news
releases on such things were in the 5FW game, and may have been in
JTAS was well.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7512
Date: Tue, 10 May 94 14:44:47 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Earth Colonies World Gen - Govt

Gentlesophonts:

From Monday night, Jim Vassilakos <jimv@ucrengr.UCR.EDU> writes about
previous TML discussions on world generation variants:

> I've just put a
> transcript of the old discussion up for ftp.

I've only gotten through part of Jim's discussion but if you're going
to participate in our current world generation discussion then I
strongly urge you to check this out first.  It will save us a *great*
deal of duplication.


Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk> asks with regard to the Earth Colonies
world generation variant I posted:

> I did note that the Govt gen
> bit doesn't allow have religious extremists or dictators - or am I
> misinterpreting the oligarchies, etc.?

It's not that you're not reading the tables correctly it's just that I
didn't bother to explain them.  The description of government types C+
as 'democratic oligarchies' merely describes the nature of authority and
consent under these governments.  The 'democratic' means that ultimately
the government enjoys some level of consent (even if that's merely a
consent to oppression in the face of an alternative of death - which is
what permits the oppression to continue) from the populace.  Since high
government levels result from large populations some sort of consent
*has* to exist.

The 'oligarchy' in the government type description merely describes the
agent that exercises authority.  In this case, a group of individuals
(as a opposed to the single individual of an autarchy).  At C+ we get
an oligarchy again because population levels are high which strains
the ability of a single individual to exercise authority.

The specific characteristics of this 'democratic oligarchy' are left
to the referee.  If you prefer a theocracy go right ahead.  The rules
are simply constructed to permit an extremely oppressive government
type without requiring that it be characterized as theocratic.  (A view
expressed in the canonical rules that, IMHO, reflects the Western humanist
bias of the original developers rather than an objective take on
government types - there was nothing 'religious' about the rule of Sauron
in Mordor!)

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7513
Date:         Tue, 10 May 94 17:13:30 EDT
From: "Susan M. Shock" <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Subject:      CT/MT/TNE: It's still TRAVELLER!

  I agree that we should probably dispense with the arguments over TNE. I do
think however that there needs to be a realization: TNE is the current form of
Traveller, the New Era is the current form of the Traveller universe. There are
people here who are experiencing Traveller for the first time because of TNE.
The comments of people like "Jo Grant" who, in a recent post, said that people
who play TNE are "sad individuals" (and other inflammatory remarks) will just
wind up alienating people. I like ALL FORMS of Traveller, including TNE. If you
want to complain about the rules or background, fine; but let's not get
personal or insulting anymore.
                               Allen Shock

------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7514
Date:         Tue, 10 May 94 18:35:25 EDT
From: "Susan M. Shock" <34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Subject:      Charted Space map for sale/trade.

I may have sent a message about this earlier (I think I accidentally zapped it)
so if I did forgive me. I have come into possession of an extra copy of a BIG
map (8 sectors by 16 sectors) of charted space produced by GDW as a promo circa
1981, showing the complete territories of all the major Traveller races. The
only flaw with this copy is that it has some extra folds in it as though mailed
in an enevelope. I have no idea how much this is worth, and would be willing to
entertain offers for sale or trade, especially trade. I'm interested in alien
modules (don't need Aslan, Vargr, Solomani or Darrians) or FASA adventures
(don't need Ordeal by Eshaar). I also have the four sector packs produced by
Judges Guild (Ley Sector, Glimmerdrift Reaches, Crucis Margin and Maranatha-
Alkahest) and extras of Alien Module 1: Aslan and 1001 Characters if anyone
needs those.  I'll trade everything listed above for Alien Module 2: K'Kree
and Alien Module 7: Hivers. Contact me at 34ZBTXQ@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU or call
(517)772-7865.
               Allen Shock

------------------------------

Bundle: 599
Archive-Message-Number: 7508
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Sword World technology
Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 05:34:27 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>J Roberson <RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu> writes:
>>I don't know much about the Sword Worlds, but to me they always seemed
>>very faction-based, more akin to the Peloponnesian city-states than,
>>say the Roman Empire.
> 
>This is a fair assessment, IMHO, but this very view seems at conflict with
>variable TLs.  Again, if Sacnoth truly is at TL 12 while the other worlds
>are at TL 9-11 then it ought to quickly come to dominate the entire
>Confederation.  

Dominate how? And how quick is quickly? 

>Remember, technology is at the heart of the `feudal
>technocracy' of the Sword Worlds Confederation.

How would this affect the inter-planet dealings? Individual Sword Worlds 
may be feudal technocracies, but the Confederation itself is a  -  well,
a confederation ;-)

>This idea of a fundamental advance does need to be rectified with Hans's
>point that in the Imperium campaign the ease of access to higher TLs points
>to an economic or sociological basis for any TL rating rather than a basis
>upon technological endeavor.  If I want to build a Jump-3 starship on Gram
>all I need to do is jump over to Sacnoth, buy some blueprints (or hire a
>shipwright), and jump back to Gram.  Since this isn't happening (otherwise
>Gram would be TL C with a class A starport) then either I can't afford to
>buy the blueprints (or hire the shipwright) *or* there is some social
>reason why I can't do this.  You can take it a step further to say that
>Gram doesn't have the TL 12 factories needed to manufacture components for
>such a ship but can't I just jump down to Sacnoth and get plans for them
>too?  

Ah, but thats the whole point. You don't have the factories because you can
buy your TL 12 stuff cheaper from Sacnoth than you can build them yourself.
And you don't build that ship yourself becuase it's cheaper to buy it from
Sacnoth, too. This also impose a natural restriction on Sacnoth's ability to 
dominate the Confederation: If they become too expensive the other worlds 
_will_ build TL 12 factories  -  which will propably trigger a recession on 
Sacnoth and close down a lot of industry  -  quite possibly enough to drop 
Sacnoth a TL in the process. That's what I mean by economic cycles.

>Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
>>David Johnson writes:
>>>>From Wednesday night, Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>>>>Perhaps the Sword Worlds goes through
>>>>a regular cycle of booms and recessions with acompanying TL increases and
>>>>decreases?
>>> 
>>>Well, maybe, but that still doesn't explain the *variance* in tech levels
>>>from world to world within the Confederation  - 
>> 
>>It does if one postulates that the individual Sword Worlds are on different
>>cycles. When a world has a boom it produces TL 12 stuff and exports it; when
>>it is in a depression it makes do with TL 10 or 11 stuff for the most part
>>and imports what it has to.
> 
>Such variation in economic cycles from world to world would seem to suggest
>that there is little integration between the economies of the Sword Worlds.

On the contrary, there is a lot of intergration. That's why their economies
can affect each other that way. What they don't have is much economic 
_control_. Each world will do what seems best for itself.

>This seems unlikely to me.  Even if there is little political cooperation
>there ought to be much economic cooperation or the Sword Worlds would have
>fallen to the Imperium - or the Darrians - long ago.

How do you know that? By that logic the independent worlds along the edge
of the Imperium should have fallen to the Imperium long ago too. They are
certainly even weaker than the Confederation. Lots of independant worlds
have fallen to the Imperium in the old days. But the Imperium had to stop
somewhere. It happened to be before they swallowed the Sword Worlds (Of
course, the fact that the present Sword world government (centered on Gram)
is rumoured to be heavily backed by Zhodani money may explain a lot). The
Imperium did occupy 12 of the Sword Worlds for a time after the Third 
Frontier War, as a matter of fact. They just decided to go home again.  

>>Their culture can perfectly well be homogenous in spite of TL variances of
>>a couple of levels.
> 
>Well, maybe, but I find this unlikely for a `feudal technocracy'.  Technology
>is a fundamental aspect of Sword Worlds culture.

(Do me a favour and describe how a feudal technocracy functions. Of all the
government types that's the one I've never been quite clear about. I have
a vague idea, but I can't quite see how it would work in practice). Anyway,
as I said above, the Confederation is not one.

>>>Without it, one wonders why
>>>Sacnoth, at tech level 12, hasn't come to dominate the Sword Worlds long
>>>ago.
>> 
>>Two possible reasons: 1) Sacnoth has its own ups and downs and just happened
>>to have an up the last time the Scouts or TAS updated their world catalogue.
> 
>Well, if this was the case, why wasn't Sacnoth the capital at that point?

Because it was only one of 20+ worlds and the rest wanted it differently?

>Leadership clearly fluctuates among the Sword Worlds so ought not these
>fluctuations be tied to any fluctuations in technology?  

Why should it? It is tied to political power. One source of political power
is technology, but it's not the only one. Besides, the leadership dosen't
fluctuate all that much. The Sword Worlds had been led by Gram for centuries 
in 1120.

>Again, keep in mind the `feudal technocracy'.

Elucidate please. I'm not trying to be snide, I actually can't see why that
should affect the inter-planet relationships.

>>2) If, as I assume, a world can maintain equipment that is not too much in
>>advance of its TL, then the other worlds can maintain their own TL 12 ships
>>even though their TL is only 10 or 11 (though they cannot build new ones). 
>>Thus there is a balance of power.
> 
>Well, again maybe, but only if that balance of power doen't destroy any
>of those precious ships.  If I were Sacnoth I wouldn't sell any other 
>worlds ships, fight them to a destructive stalemate, build some new TL12
>weapons of my own, and set myself up as a TED, in a sense.  If the Sword
>Worlds are as fractious as it seems, even if Sacnoth doesn't do this it
>seems the next world to hit the `peak' of it's cycle would.

Oh, dear! You really have a gamer's mentality, don't you? (And, yes, here I
am being snide ;-) The Sword Worlds have had their civil wars, true, but
they don't have them twice a decade. I think they've had four or five in
15 centuries. They're not the local Monday Evening Gaming Club trying to
do each other down, reasoning that having 50 'victory points' and win is
better than having 500 points and lose. Wars cost. Maybe the Sacnoth 
leaders think a destructive stalemate would destroy too much. And, as
I've mentioned above, if Sacnoth dosen't sell those ships then the other
worlds _will_ build the factories to make the parts and build their own. If 
that's the way it works, then the only reason why the other worlds are not 
TL 12 is precisely that Sacnoth IS selling them ships and spare parts.

> This entire `technological cycles' idea seems to me to be more and more
> difficult to rationalize.

Did I help?

>>         "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
>>         subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
>>         ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
>>         to put down any military operations that threathen
>>         the peace of the Imperium."
>> 
>>                         ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir
> 
>I've been meaning to say it for a long time.  I *love* this quote.  It so
>wonderfully demonstrates the `provinciality' of all of us who `grew up' in the
>Marches - both gamers and GDW.  Thanks, Hans.

Thank you. Ahh, yes. I too remember a time when a Kinunir was an awesome 
vesel of destruction, able to pacify whole worlds at a single volley of
its 15 (Count them: 15!) jump capsules <<nostalgic sniff>>.

They just don't make Marines like that nowadays, do they?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8


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End of TML Biweekly
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